Re:was upper lonberger one of the ... - 2009/09/24 12:57I am very unhappy to hear about this. This is very bad in 2 ways. Whoever is doing this is ruining the character of the trail. Even worse is that they are destroying the trail by pulling rocks from the trail bed. Those rocks stabilize the trail. If there are deep divots on the trail, that will create problems and make the trail less safe. I'd rather ride over rocks then drop my front wheel in a deep hole, or step in a deep hole.
This would would be bad if they were "paving" the trail with rocks from off the trail. It is terrible to pull rocks out of the trail and leave divots. I like Princess's idea of writing messages with colored chalk to educate these fools. If anyone sees this happening, please confront these people and explain the damage they are doing to the trail. Maybe if they know, they will replace the rocks in the holes
My take is, if this trail is too hard for you to bike/hike/run, either stay off it or walk. Don't ruin it for everyone else just to make it easier for you. That is very selfish.
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Re:was upper lonberger one of the ... - 2009/09/24 13:07Just for the record (so it's clear), I don't like the idea of them removing the rocks either and I agree that there will be a short term erosion and puddling issue (albeit small in the grand scheme of things).Chuck Norris once broke the land speed record on a bicycle that was missing its chain and the back tire.
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Re:was upper lonberger one of the ... - 2009/09/24 13:54I hiked upper this am w/ my dogs... yes, the holes are obvious. I took some pics and some are about 6" deep and about "3 to 6" across. I spent a little time filling them and trying to keep the fill flush w/ the surface so there are no jutting rocks. By the way, I did drop a front wheel in one of them the other night. I noticed though that some areas that were modified didn't seem to interfere too much w/ the bigger rock garden's tougher lines and they are still as they were; there are 2 in particular that just had the middle section "paved" a bit. One is just past the Kettle/Lonberger sign post, and the other is at the final big log bridge going to Nth. Meadows Rd. They made a smoother approach to the log. There will certainly be some ambiguity regarding the modifications; and I hope it will get worked out. Lonberger is one of those trails though that is well-known and accessible to newcomers and visitors. However, the bigger issue is the removal of deep bedded rocks and the destabilization of trails; and I agree, people should be made aware of that. If I do see anyone doing this, I will make bring it up.
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Re:was upper lonberger one of the ... - 2009/09/24 16:14Thanks mom, and I'm not trying to argue with you online, but they did a bit more than just pave the middle section of Kettle. Pretty much the whole trail is flat, and the only way around it is to go off into the woods. I'd rather not have to look for a new line.
I'd be willing to get up there with a shovel and start moving the rocks back to where I think they came from. Then trying to fix the holes as best as possible. But some kind of message or sign would be great. Probably a rider is doing it though...the rock garden at Kettle has a big bridge across it, and I don't think a runner would spend that much time fitting the rocks together. Lower was ruined with the logging, and now Upper is gonna get messed up with all the rain and snow melt.
Post edited by: mcmbike, at: 2009/09/24 16:17
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Re:was upper lonberger one of the ... - 2009/09/24 16:32rode through it this morning, no less than 20 holes from rocks being removed (i counted where donna filled). 7 holes from the large log crossing going up, in about 10 yards. Donna did a good job filling in. Even the small 5x4 holes that remain will gather water and change the landscape. Otto, multi use and trail maintenance is not the same thing as trail destruction by removing what has been there for decades and decades.
WHAT's NEXT? the tombstone section of 3 Bridges trail over to Spruce Gap / Lonberger?
forget to add this, going toward lower longberger, you could now clean the entry of kettle crossing on a road bike.....the exit still requires some skills, at least as of this morning.
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Re:was upper lonberger one of the ... - 2009/09/24 20:08All I can say is boooo! I hope it stops. If we see them this misguided enthusiasm could be steered in a different direction.
This is most likely another biker; I highly doubt a trail runner would stop, let alone stop to haul rock and make a road.
-Jason
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Re:was upper lonberger one of the ... - 2009/09/25 10:02It's a rider, trail runners like the technical trails. It is a blast trying to pick your way through the rocks. Whoever is doing this needs to put their energy elsewhere like gasline extension. Please get photos!
HO
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Re:was upper lonberger one of the ... - 2009/09/25 10:49I have some pics... and you're right HO... trail runners are definitely into the challenge... I saw the day you were running down Old Laurel... wow! I'll get Madison to post some pics. Donna
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Re:was upper lonberger one of the ... - 2009/09/27 00:16To answer Otto's questions, its very doubtful that its anyone other than a less experienced mountain biker is doing this (sadly). As for the removal of rocks from the trail tread, this is not good either. The ground itself is pretty well compacted; by removing rocks, you create the opportunity for other rocks to shift, water to find a home and become a mud hole or worse, create a nice place for someone to stuff a wheel. Its a pretty amateur move and should be very much discouraged. Sadly though, there isn't a whole lot to do about it except to try and find out who is doing the work and explain (nicely) the error of their ways. They see it as making a section rideable, while the best course would be to encourage them to work on their skills. Vigilante-ism is just silly. But I think I will also take the opportunity to mention that this happens all the time, one person's rideable line is another's highway. There are quite a few in the club who remember when the hardest rock garden in Rothrock was the white rocks on Charcoal flats, but now most of that is pretty easy. And I know its not because I have gotten that much better. Trails are dynamic systems, being acted on by many factors, this is just one that most of us wish hadn't found the trail. I know of several people that think all the log ramps on Tussey are ridiculous, but they either think a) all the logs should be cut out or b) the ramps should be removed and people should learn how to hop them. As for the idea is trail runners, HA! Have you seen what the course for the Rothrock Challenge was? They didn't want to run on Tussey Mountain trail because it was "too easy". They went down and up the rock faces in Shingletown's entrance! And there were some 400 people who did that!
Post edited by: frank, at: 2009/09/27 00:18
Post edited by: frank, at: 2009/09/27 00:20
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Re:was upper lonberger one of the ... - 2009/09/27 17:09people should learn how to hop them Never have I seen so many sanitized logs in one area. On the other hand the ramped logs have allowed me to improve my "natural jump" jump skills. Just making lemonade...
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Re:was upper lonberger one of the ... - 2009/09/28 20:31i was out in the rain this morning and decided to restore as much as i could the section down from the log ride. it was such a ludicrous place to pave, the line that exists is blatantly obvious and also very easy. didn't do anything to the one at the log by north meadows, it started coming down fairly hard by then and i just wanted to get back to the car.
btw, anyone else having issues seeing madison's pics?
Post edited by: princess, at: 2009/09/28 20:32
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Re:was upper lonberger one of the ... - 2009/09/29 00:26so maybe it's just me, but when i think of a mt biker with subpar skills, i seem to think of college kids. any chance this info has made it to the PSU listserve? what did we elect pontzer liason for if he hasn't cracked the whip on them?
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; and I agree, people should be made aware of that. If I do see anyone doing this, I will make bring it up.
wow! I'll get Madison to post some pics. Donna
